I'm sure this is the reason vector-based 2D animation software is so popular . . . it is really difficult for most people to draw clean "ink" lines with a Wacom tablet. I've been trying for years and still, my work does not cut the mustard.
Now, many animation styles call for "messy" linework, but if you are trying to achieve finished linework of the early Disney quality, as I have been attempting to do by hand, messy ruins the effect.
I'm much better with pencil and paper, but working that way sort of defeats much of the time saving nature that working with a computer, as your animation assistant, has to offer. TVPaint does make use of splines, but I don't find that much of a time-save either, though the line quality is far better than what I can achieve, by hand.
Maybe this thread could serve as vehicle for all TVPaint experts to share their linework secrets, (if they are so inclined). Here are some of the things I have tried that do help, a little, to give you a steadier Wacom hand:
Replace the plastic film supplied, with a piece of drafting quality Mylar - the texture gives a pencil-to-paper "tooth", although it wears out nibs as fast as drawing on concrete.
Place two sheets of typing paper in place of the supplied Wacom film for a cushioned, but not quite so toothy, tactile quality.
Cut two very small rectangles of rabbit skin, with fur, and super-glue them to an old nib, fur side to the drawing surface - replacing the supplied Wacom film with a perfectly smooth piece of drafting acetate, or, 2 sheets of typing paper as described above. This gives a very springy, smooth, indescribable tactile quality to drawing with a Wacom. My lines still are not Disney quality with this method, though.
Purchase the Wacom "felt tip nibs". Nice, but they wear out fast and are rather expensive.
Use the vector tools in Moho for your character animation and import the image sequences into TVPaint for fine-tuning and colorization. I really don't want to resort to this last method because drawing cels, frame by frame, adds so much more life to an animation. But what is a guy to do?
More suggestions?
Thanks,
Greg Smith
Where's the "Draw Perfectly Smooth Lines" Filter?
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Greg Smith
- Posts: 23
- Joined: 11 Sep 2006, 22:32
When you were voicing your concerns about using tablets, my mind went to (jeez, I dont have any trouble of that sort) But I think the reason why is because I've worked through any 'problems' Ive encountered along the way... For example, one thing about using Wacom tablets, or even 2d computer animation in general - I always work 10 to 15% larger than I need, 50% if I can.... Except when Im working in HD, where it is too time consuming and computer resource intensive... So, you do your work zoomed in, and when you finish and size your project to video resolution, it then hides some mistakes, line inconsistancy etc. etc..
This first image (courtesy of Nick Bradshaw) is done with a tablet, zoomed in, its obvious that it was done with a tablet.
When you make it smaller, the details that you would have to work on if it was a static image and maintain a large resolution - does not matter as much.
And there are plenty of cartoons out there, that if you have ever watched the DVD's of any newer cartoons, you'll get the effect of Broadcast (which does add some fuzzyness etc.) VS direct from computer that masks line quality. I really noticed this with Futurama, I had never been distracted by the quality of the characters lines, or the uniformness of the lines (no variation) when I watched it on TV, but on the DVD it becomes apparent...
In regards to hand steadying excercises. What has helped me a lot, are two things. Firstly, literally taping a weight to the top end of a pencil and doing some sketching (doesnt really matter what). Not a substantial weight, just enough so that after an hour or so of drawing, taking the weight off is a releif and you can immediately feel that the pencil is LIGHTER and infinitly more responsive.
Second, are actual drawing excercises - with a pencil and paper; make a series of pairs of dots, fairly close together (an inch or so) at first. Then without touching the pencil to the paper, draw an imaginary line fairly rapidly back and forth between the first set of dots. Once you have 'nailed it' - and lay down the pencil to make your nice and hopefully straight line that starts and stops where the points do. Do the same to a whole series of dots and youll get better at it. Increase the distance between the dots as you get better, while keeping the line straight. Then, once that is a peice of cake - now use the same dots and lines to construct a box, a 3 point perspective type box. Once you get good at 3 point perspecitve boxes, move on to drawing a circle that is bound by one side of that box. The circle should touch the edges of the square containing it, and be adequately foreshortened given the perspective. Now, doing these as warm ups has increased my accuracy and line quality allot.
This first image (courtesy of Nick Bradshaw) is done with a tablet, zoomed in, its obvious that it was done with a tablet.
When you make it smaller, the details that you would have to work on if it was a static image and maintain a large resolution - does not matter as much.
And there are plenty of cartoons out there, that if you have ever watched the DVD's of any newer cartoons, you'll get the effect of Broadcast (which does add some fuzzyness etc.) VS direct from computer that masks line quality. I really noticed this with Futurama, I had never been distracted by the quality of the characters lines, or the uniformness of the lines (no variation) when I watched it on TV, but on the DVD it becomes apparent...
In regards to hand steadying excercises. What has helped me a lot, are two things. Firstly, literally taping a weight to the top end of a pencil and doing some sketching (doesnt really matter what). Not a substantial weight, just enough so that after an hour or so of drawing, taking the weight off is a releif and you can immediately feel that the pencil is LIGHTER and infinitly more responsive.
Second, are actual drawing excercises - with a pencil and paper; make a series of pairs of dots, fairly close together (an inch or so) at first. Then without touching the pencil to the paper, draw an imaginary line fairly rapidly back and forth between the first set of dots. Once you have 'nailed it' - and lay down the pencil to make your nice and hopefully straight line that starts and stops where the points do. Do the same to a whole series of dots and youll get better at it. Increase the distance between the dots as you get better, while keeping the line straight. Then, once that is a peice of cake - now use the same dots and lines to construct a box, a 3 point perspective type box. Once you get good at 3 point perspecitve boxes, move on to drawing a circle that is bound by one side of that box. The circle should touch the edges of the square containing it, and be adequately foreshortened given the perspective. Now, doing these as warm ups has increased my accuracy and line quality allot.
Evar Simon
Here is a way to trace (vector, not hand-drawing) nice lines with great control.
1-Select a tool with pressure activated (PenBrush with [P] on Size). Create a layer (anim or image) of several frames length.
2- open the FX stack and select the Auto-paint FX
3- On the frame 1, check "Use pressure", create a key for position and pressure, set the pressure to a positive value
4- select stroke : full
5- check the preview checkbox
you should have your first node on screen. You can move it.
6- Go to next frame and create new position and pressure keys
7- Move the node, Right click to popup the menu with spline options
8- repeat 6-7until your line is complete
9- select or modify the drawing tool parameters if needed
10- Go to your target frame and apply the fx
As you build your line, you can select any node on screen with a click on it.
1-Select a tool with pressure activated (PenBrush with [P] on Size). Create a layer (anim or image) of several frames length.
2- open the FX stack and select the Auto-paint FX
3- On the frame 1, check "Use pressure", create a key for position and pressure, set the pressure to a positive value
4- select stroke : full
5- check the preview checkbox
you should have your first node on screen. You can move it.
6- Go to next frame and create new position and pressure keys
7- Move the node, Right click to popup the menu with spline options
8- repeat 6-7until your line is complete
9- select or modify the drawing tool parameters if needed
10- Go to your target frame and apply the fx
As you build your line, you can select any node on screen with a click on it.
Manuel
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elmisilhumano
- Posts: 1104
- Joined: 28 Aug 2006, 20:41
- Location: Finland
- Contact:
I think it's almost impossible to draw "Disney quality" lines without paper and pencil. Maybe some can, but I think there's not too many. The feel is just not the same and I found it almost as time consuming to draw "quality line" with wacom as paper and pencil. Disney style lines also have a nice crispy edges of pencil line.
But one thing that really help you to draw better lines is a cintiq pen display. It is a quite expencive device, but I think it's worth of it.
Mikko
But one thing that really help you to draw better lines is a cintiq pen display. It is a quite expencive device, but I think it's worth of it.
Mikko
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Greg Smith
- Posts: 23
- Joined: 11 Sep 2006, 22:32
Well, I've found various ways to achieve nice smooth 'inked' lines in TVPaint for some time now...
First of all (as elmisilhumano mentioned), I'm using a Wacom Cintiq 18SX -- which is an 18" flat panel LCD tablet which allows me to see what I'm drawing on. This is very important for my particular method because I need good hand-eye coordination and 1:1 tracking.
I have two ways of working.
One is to use the Freehand Filled Shape tool, which allows me to carve out large black shapes, and then cut away at it while holding down the RMB side-trigger on my stylus. I have to have Side Switch Expert Mode turned on for that part.
The other way of working is to use the PenBrush, and I have to hit the line in one continuous, smooth stroke. No kidding. If I mess up, I have to hit Undo and concentrate harder on the next go.
Zoom in when you have to, rotate the canvas to accomodate the arc of your arm, ( or rotate the Cintiq or TabletPC if you've got one ). There aren't many secrets to good inking, even on the computer. A calm disposition and patience will see you through the whole job. You just have to take it one line at a time.
I am capable of making a limited number of sweeping curves by isolating my motions down various combinations of elbow, wrist, or shoulder turns. By zooming in and out, or rotating the canvas, I can align things to match with one of the curves I can make. I make good use of the Navigator panel from time to time so I don't get lost. If you have to ink animation, then I would suggest going for the most simple style you can think of with the simplest configurations of curves. There's a reason Disney animations cost millions to produce.
Nice clean inking is like that. You're always going to have to apply a great amount of concentration towards it. Even using traditional methods, the Disney inkers had massive inking armies to handle their work. Don't underestimate the difficulty of pristine inks!
I myself use the wacom "Felt Nibs" and figure that they're well worth the price for a more paperlike feel. Hell, I consider them just another consumable item, like buying a box of pencils. They wear out after a few months, but you can get them for fairly cheap, and they fit into almost any intuous, cintiq, graphire or artZ tablet. I can buy a crate of those things with an hour of work, and considering how much faster I get work done, they're a worthy investment.
Ooh. another thing that I almost forgot to mention... Get some inexpensive cotton gloves from the dollar store and cut the fingers off of them and wear those. I can't work without them, because after a while, your hand will begin to adhere to the tablet surface, especially if it's a tablet screen that heats up on its own.
Good luck, and happy inking!
P.S. I realized also that when I ink, I work thin to thick -- that is, I start my strokes using very light pressure, (where the line must be thin), and then progressively increase pressure (to make the line thick). This gives me much better control than starting out thick, and then flicking the stylus to make the lines thin (which often yields unpredictable results). I often make many "rehearsal" strokes as well, so that I have a clear mental path of the stroke I'm about to lay down. Under no circumstances do I let the stylus roam out of control. Luck isn't a factor in work of consistent quality.
First of all (as elmisilhumano mentioned), I'm using a Wacom Cintiq 18SX -- which is an 18" flat panel LCD tablet which allows me to see what I'm drawing on. This is very important for my particular method because I need good hand-eye coordination and 1:1 tracking.
I have two ways of working.
One is to use the Freehand Filled Shape tool, which allows me to carve out large black shapes, and then cut away at it while holding down the RMB side-trigger on my stylus. I have to have Side Switch Expert Mode turned on for that part.
The other way of working is to use the PenBrush, and I have to hit the line in one continuous, smooth stroke. No kidding. If I mess up, I have to hit Undo and concentrate harder on the next go.
Zoom in when you have to, rotate the canvas to accomodate the arc of your arm, ( or rotate the Cintiq or TabletPC if you've got one ). There aren't many secrets to good inking, even on the computer. A calm disposition and patience will see you through the whole job. You just have to take it one line at a time.
I am capable of making a limited number of sweeping curves by isolating my motions down various combinations of elbow, wrist, or shoulder turns. By zooming in and out, or rotating the canvas, I can align things to match with one of the curves I can make. I make good use of the Navigator panel from time to time so I don't get lost. If you have to ink animation, then I would suggest going for the most simple style you can think of with the simplest configurations of curves. There's a reason Disney animations cost millions to produce.
Nice clean inking is like that. You're always going to have to apply a great amount of concentration towards it. Even using traditional methods, the Disney inkers had massive inking armies to handle their work. Don't underestimate the difficulty of pristine inks!
I myself use the wacom "Felt Nibs" and figure that they're well worth the price for a more paperlike feel. Hell, I consider them just another consumable item, like buying a box of pencils. They wear out after a few months, but you can get them for fairly cheap, and they fit into almost any intuous, cintiq, graphire or artZ tablet. I can buy a crate of those things with an hour of work, and considering how much faster I get work done, they're a worthy investment.
Ooh. another thing that I almost forgot to mention... Get some inexpensive cotton gloves from the dollar store and cut the fingers off of them and wear those. I can't work without them, because after a while, your hand will begin to adhere to the tablet surface, especially if it's a tablet screen that heats up on its own.
Good luck, and happy inking!
P.S. I realized also that when I ink, I work thin to thick -- that is, I start my strokes using very light pressure, (where the line must be thin), and then progressively increase pressure (to make the line thick). This gives me much better control than starting out thick, and then flicking the stylus to make the lines thin (which often yields unpredictable results). I often make many "rehearsal" strokes as well, so that I have a clear mental path of the stroke I'm about to lay down. Under no circumstances do I let the stylus roam out of control. Luck isn't a factor in work of consistent quality.
(Win7x64, TVP Pro 11 32-bit)
another method with a similar feel like the felt nib is
to tape a sheet of paper over your drawing tablet. It will only last
half a day or so, but it gives you a firmer control over the pen.
And it feels more like you are working on paper.
I used to do it in the beginning of my tablet escapades, but i feel
now it is no longer necessary...
to tape a sheet of paper over your drawing tablet. It will only last
half a day or so, but it gives you a firmer control over the pen.
And it feels more like you are working on paper.
I used to do it in the beginning of my tablet escapades, but i feel
now it is no longer necessary...
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malcooning
- Posts: 2114
- Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 12:43
- Location: Tel Aviv
- Contact:
speaking of pen nibs, the intuos3 comes with additional nibs (as well, you can buy thenm seperatly), and one of the nibs has a spring embedded into it. if you use that one, the pen produces MUCH smoother lines, more like seen in Flash.
try it if you have it.
other than that, why restrict yourself to the search after the 'perfect' smooth line? why not enjoy what TVPaint DOES offer. The absence of vector tools is only one of the very few features tvp is not comprising. All the other exisiting features dwarf any existing software in the market today.
try it if you have it.
other than that, why restrict yourself to the search after the 'perfect' smooth line? why not enjoy what TVPaint DOES offer. The absence of vector tools is only one of the very few features tvp is not comprising. All the other exisiting features dwarf any existing software in the market today.
I think that perfectly smooth lines are something that can be easily achieved -- er wait not easily... but with control and patience and practice, you can ink beautifully, and in many ways it's easier than doing it in real life.
However, if you're nervous and jittery and inexperienced, then your choices for smooth lines will be limited to automatic filters that are not always the best at producing subtle results. If you want to push and pull beziér curves around, well, I used to do that and it took HOURS upon HOURS to get the results I wanted, (except I was inking comic book style work), and in the end, I still feel that it's faster using raster-based programs.
If your characters are simple enough, then I suppose you can use vector software or any of TVPaint's tools -- but inking is always a tedious proposition if you want it done perfectly, regardless if your medium is vector or bitmap.
Still... it sure beats painting on a cel...
However, if you're nervous and jittery and inexperienced, then your choices for smooth lines will be limited to automatic filters that are not always the best at producing subtle results. If you want to push and pull beziér curves around, well, I used to do that and it took HOURS upon HOURS to get the results I wanted, (except I was inking comic book style work), and in the end, I still feel that it's faster using raster-based programs.
If your characters are simple enough, then I suppose you can use vector software or any of TVPaint's tools -- but inking is always a tedious proposition if you want it done perfectly, regardless if your medium is vector or bitmap.
Still... it sure beats painting on a cel...
(Win7x64, TVP Pro 11 32-bit)
ZigOtto >> I looked up that stylus and it looks just like my stylus -- albeit with different colours. I noticed that the internals of the vast majority of wacom pens haven't changed much at all since the UD serial tablets.
I'd bet you the cost of a 10-pack of felt nibs that they'll fit just fine in your stylus.
I'd bet you the cost of a 10-pack of felt nibs that they'll fit just fine in your stylus.
Last edited by lemec on 19 Sep 2006, 17:07, edited 1 time in total.
(Win7x64, TVP Pro 11 32-bit)
damned! ... no way to buy these nibs in Europa, schhhiiit, it's really a f***ing old continent where I'm living!!!!..5 pack of replacement Intuos3 felt (black) pen nibs with increased friction for more of a "pencil on paper" feel.
System Requirements: Also compatible with Intuos, Graphire, ArtPad, ArtZ pens, and Grip Pens for Cintiq.
WacomDirect is only available for orders shipping within
the U.S.A. to the billing address for the credit card used.
available in US, in Canada, in Australia, in India, but not in Europe ...? I can't believe it!
Last edited by ZigOtto on 19 Sep 2006, 18:26, edited 3 times in total.
Hey hey hey... wait up... I did a little searching on the Wacom Europe forum and came up with this...
It's a shop in the Netherlands, so shipping shouldn't be too astronomical...
http://www.wacomshop.nl/group.html?Grou ... &ItemID=-1
It's a shop in the Netherlands, so shipping shouldn't be too astronomical...
http://www.wacomshop.nl/group.html?Grou ... &ItemID=-1
(Win7x64, TVP Pro 11 32-bit)