Using the CTG layer for colouring

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D.T. Nethery
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Re: Using the CTG layer for colouring

Post by D.T. Nethery » 26 Sep 2015, 18:29

David_Fine wrote:
Peter Wassink wrote: i'd like to request an extra tool in the color & texturelayer panel where a close gap tool is added to the Speedfill toolpanel and you just put thin UI lines to closeoff leaks.
The lines (like the squiggles) will not be visible in render or when the C&F layer is off or inactive
In fact, this is exactly how you do it in Harmony. You just paint invisible lines to define the areas, as needed.
I haven't used Harmony that much , but doesn't Elodie's illustration ( viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9344#p86357" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) two posts above yours
show something similar with CTG ? A carefully placed "squiggle" line closes a color area , but when the scene is rendered this line is invisible.
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Peter Wassink
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Re: Using the CTG layer for colouring

Post by Peter Wassink » 28 Sep 2015, 15:23

D.T. Nethery wrote:
David_Fine wrote:
Peter Wassink wrote: i'd like to request an extra tool in the color & texturelayer panel where a close gap tool is added to the Speedfill toolpanel and you just put thin UI lines to closeoff leaks.
The lines (like the squiggles) will not be visible in render or when the C&F layer is off or inactive
In fact, this is exactly how you do it in Harmony. You just paint invisible lines to define the areas, as needed.
I haven't used Harmony that much , but doesn't Elodie's illustration ( viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9344#p86357" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) two posts above yours
show something similar with CTG ? A carefully placed "squiggle" line closes a color area , but when the scene is rendered this line is invisible.
When i tried it it was hit and miss for me.
how do you fare, with it? maybe i'm doing it wrong. I think an option like this should be 100% reliable, painting animation is enough work as it is.
Last edited by Peter Wassink on 28 Sep 2015, 19:00, edited 1 time in total.
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David_Fine
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Re: Using the CTG layer for colouring

Post by David_Fine » 28 Sep 2015, 18:43

Peter Wassink wrote: When i tried it it was hit and miss for me.
This is exactly the issue I am having. Hit and miss. The link to the Lazy Brush page could be exactly what we need, so I will look there, but I wish this info was available on the TVP site in the first place, otherwise users have to rely on finding it in the forum.
David Fine
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CartoonMonkey
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Re: Using the CTG layer for colouring

Post by CartoonMonkey » 05 Oct 2015, 21:45

Hi David,
Here's a little demonstration using CTG layers in TVPaint 11:
http://www.cartoonmonkey.com/lazybrush-demo.mp4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you need further help, let me know and I can get on skype and share my desktop.. or you can share yours and I'll see if I can help.
My contact: http://www.cartoonmonkey.net/contact/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Best,
Chad

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daninski
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Re: Using the CTG layer for colouring

Post by daninski » 10 Oct 2015, 10:25

That last video was excellent. I get it now. It's witchcraft and I like it.
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Jet
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Re: Using the CTG layer for colouring

Post by Jet » 16 Oct 2015, 11:07

I've used and own almost every animation software there is (including studio proprietary) and none does coloring better than Retas Studio PaintMan does, at least for anime/celshade/flats. Here is a gif I made using the example image in this thread using PaintMan.

Image

Sorry it isn't very clean, my blue lines are on top of the blacks because I don't have the original source image. Notice the blue/red separation lines. We use those to create boundaries between two colors, lights and shadows, it's important to note that when drawing those lines that they become part of the finished cel. In the fill tool options we choose which color line we want to overwrite, meaning when you fill with the color you want, any adjacent blue/red pixel in this drawing will be filled too. I wrote about this on another thread in here and how to use a workaround to get the same result using TVPaint: http://tvpaint.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 218#p85094

By the way, since someone mentioned, if you want to change the color of something, just change the color in the palette box and it will apply to all cels.

It's an issue that is important to me, because coloring animation is the quickest thing to make you want to quit. Unfortunately I dislike the fill tool in TVPaint as it is, so I never use it, but since TVPaint is a much better animation tool than Retas Studio is, I only use Retas Studio to color. :mrgreen:

The good news is that Celsys look to be combining Retas Studio with Manga Studio 5 EX (Clip Studio Paint EX) so if the PaintMan color features carry over it should be a lot more accessible to people outside of Japan: http://cgworld.jp/news/tool/1508-clip-s ... x2d10.html

Image

Over at the Anime Studio forum I did a video using a low resolution image to show how it works in Retas Studio from start to finish (so you can see that it is accurate to the pixel, no estimation, no expanding etc).


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Elodie
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Re: Using the CTG layer for colouring

Post by Elodie » 16 Oct 2015, 12:21

I had the chance to see Retas working when I visited Tatsunoko earlier this year and indeed, the way they manage colouring is impressing, and I took good note of this "RGB checkbox" ;)

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Fabrice
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Re: Using the CTG layer for colouring

Post by Fabrice » 19 Oct 2015, 10:27

Over at the Anime Studio forum I did a video using a low resolution image to show how it works in Retas Studio from start to finish (so you can see that it is accurate to the pixel, no estimation, no expanding etc).
but Anti-Aliased lines are not managed ... there are issues with gaps and isolated pixels.
I took good note of this "RGB checkbox" ;)
it's not limited to RGB and possible also in TVPaint too.
Fabrice Debarge

Jet
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Re: Using the CTG layer for colouring

Post by Jet » 19 Oct 2015, 16:14

Fabrice wrote:but Anti-Aliased lines are not managed ... there are issues with gaps and isolated pixels.
I had the [Close Gap] set high so it would produce gaps on purpose, so I could demo the [Close Fill] tool. Setting [Close Gap] to a low number will result in no gaps most of the time, it works the same in TVP, the lower the number, the better the result. Retas will add AA to the lines when they are rendered in CoreRetas like Harmony and Harlequin does so AA is perfectly managed. Please note in the video I used a very low resolution image so I could show how pixels interact with the [Fill] tool. Here is an example of resolution differences when working in PaintMan.

Image

I made a couple comparison videos where I painted the same image using TVP and Retas PaintMan to test the speed. TVP had some problems with leaving a lot of unfilled areas, I spent a good hour testing tolerance levels before I started painting. Elodie mentioned that CTG solves this problem and it sure does, I could have used it in the video especially for the method I went with, but in the original topic I was also comparing price as it was an issue, so TVP Pro features were out. TVP Pro is over $1000+ compared to Retas Studio's $160+, so it wouldn't have been fair to the OP. Worth it; but no good if it is out of budget. Note the method I'm using isn't what Retas PaintMan does, I'm just creating an alpha shape out of the blue, red and green lines and dealing with them separately, locking transparency and filling those shapes, that way the line was absorbed rather than used as a reference, but it's a lot slower.

It's actually quite similar to what aldehyde did in theory, however he used his final intended color for the separation line whereas mine was blue, indicating shadow to a separate color assistant.

You can watch the TVP run here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5dK5GJhNiA

And the Retas PaintMan run here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwr4oB6YpcM

Retas PaintMan has a tool called the [Extender] tool which works similarly to the [Smudge] tool found in Photoshop where it drags color, but only over unfilled gaps, it's pretty smart, it means you don't need to pick a color manually from a palette or eyedropper, just click and drag on the frame. If you watch the video, I use it at the end.

Image

I really like CTG but it's too restrictive for high detailed anime stuff or even simple color boundaries as shown in this thread, the normal [Fill Tool] is better for that, it just needs that [Include Color Line] feature and [Extender] tool from Retas PaintMan and it would be perfect, I could ditch Retas altogether.

Image
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daninski
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Re: Using the CTG layer for colouring

Post by daninski » 19 Oct 2015, 16:32

Ah, you're using bucket fill and not the easy paint fill. I was confused for a second then.
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Fabrice
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Re: Using the CTG layer for colouring

Post by Fabrice » 20 Oct 2015, 09:49

Jet wrote:the normal [Fill Tool] is better for that, it just needs that [Include Color Line] feature and [Extender] tool from Retas PaintMan and it would be perfect, I could ditch Retas altogether.
I remember a japanese studio which worked on this feature. They made a script and/or a custom panel to fasten the coloring process.
I don't know if we can share it though. I will ask them.
I really like CTG but it's too restrictive for high detailed anime stuff or even simple color boundaries as shown in this thread, the normal [Fill Tool] is better for that, it just needs that [Include Color Line] feature and [Extender] tool from Retas PaintMan and it would be perfect, I could ditch Retas altogether.
ok, will think about it :)
Fabrice Debarge

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