Non destructive alpha support

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radams6
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Non destructive alpha support

Post by radams6 » 02 Sep 2008, 14:30

Hi All,

Something that MIrage needed...and I haven't seen this updated with TVP Pro 9

Is the ability to add and subtract from an alpha channel...
This is extremely needed for FX work...and for compositing...various elements.

The old way of working did not allow you see what you were adding or deleting from the alpha and when you did merge it back...it was destructive...so you lost your original source material.

I know there are some work arounds...but nothing in realtime and non destructive..that would allow you to see what you are doing.

Photoshop has this ability...and is something very needed for all TVP users...even animators...then you can more easily do fx's and comps...non destructively.

Cheers,

Ray Adams
Ray Adams

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Fabrice
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by Fabrice » 02 Sep 2008, 15:16

Can not this be done with the recent blending modes of TVP Animation 9.0 Professional Edition ?

I'm not sure to fully understand that request. :?:
Fabrice Debarge

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radams6
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by radams6 » 02 Sep 2008, 23:34

Fabrice wrote:Can not this be done with the recent blending modes of TVP Animation 9.0 Professional Edition ?

I'm not sure to fully understand that request. :?:
Bonjour Fabrice,

No I do not think that blending modes will do this.
Do you have Photoshop ?

Load in a photo or scanned image.
Add a mask and paint on the mask...(in Photoshop this is the alpha channel)

Now you can go into that mask at anytime and change the alpha without effecting the image.
This is needed for comps especially with motion blur...and to isolate elements in a shot.
it is also great to be able to animate just the alpha channel...

All of this is NON-destructive and I can save the file and reload it and still be able to change the alpha or even delete it.
Edit: I also forgot to say that the artist can then see in realtime as they paint the alpha on and off...this is essential...
to be able to see what you are adding or subtracting in realtime...overlayed ontop of other elements.

I can send you a sample of what I'm talking about...to load into photoshop.

Cheers,
Ray Adams

Visual FX Supervisor
R Creative Touch

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Fabrice
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by Fabrice » 03 Sep 2008, 08:22

ok, I see now what you mean. (the red alpha layer of Photoshop) I often retouched some photos with this tool.

But would it be really useful for a 2D animation artist ? is it not too far from the 2D animation and paint purposes ?
(this a question for the community, feel free to share your thoughts here)
Fabrice Debarge

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slowtiger
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by slowtiger » 03 Sep 2008, 08:29

Although I'm not into SFX I know how useful that feature is. Just two things to mention:
- imagine doing stuff removal from live action footage. You need to draw masks to do that.
- imagine incorporating animation into live action footage. You need to draw masks to do that.
Right now I'd use a normal layer to draw the mask and set the layer to stencil, but this isn't the same since I can't easily make the stenciled part a selection (or can I?).
TVP 10.0.18, Mac Pro Quadcore 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11, QT 7.7.3

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Manuel
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by Manuel » 03 Sep 2008, 08:41

:!: You can do that once in a project in TVP 9 pro :
1) set background to None
2) draw your alpha on a layer A in color mode.
3) put your picture on a layer B (above A) in replace mode.

This is non Destructive.
If you want a background, put a layer on top, in behind mode.


To extend that, we need layer grouping so that a layer affect only the layer of the same group (or level in case of hierarchy)
Manuel

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radams6
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by radams6 » 03 Sep 2008, 13:56

Bonjour Manuel,

Thanks for the headsup...thou it seem very diluted from the solution I requested.
Also How will this work in a Multi-layer project...and how easily can it be undone..even after saving it.

it would be so helpful to be able to have a layer have it's alpha be available at any time to make adjustments to without going thru all that.

This is one of my most used features with photoshop..and any other paint application...it saves so much time isolating elements without losing the original data.
to be able to tweek things as you go.

I can easily get 60 to 100 layers in Photoshop..and now that TVP pro has blend modes ...I will be needing it even more.

Speaking of blend modes...will TVP now import a PS files with Blend modes intack ?

The solution I would love to see..is the ability to show the alpha in a layer and be able to interact with it in realtime...while not deleting any of the original layers information..
It would be a Black/White - Grayscale image sequence below the main layer...now , I would politely suggest that the alpha layer default to being off (the alpha layer not shown) ...but have a button or something on the layer interface to be able to see it. Then by painting in with blacks, white or greys would make realtime interactive changes to the main layer the alpha is attached to. It would then be also easy to cut and paste this alpha into other layer's alphas or layers.

Once I get my upgrade...I will make a sample UI to what I'm stating...
For those used to this powerful yet simple control...from other apps such as Photoshop, and many other production paint systems even the old paintbox and Ava paint systems (for those of us with some grey hairs :)

We have george scripts to pull an alpha out of a layer...or add an alpha to a layer.
But those are not interactive/realtime...and are destructive.

This would help out so much with also being able to animated the alpha channel as well (without erasing the original data)

Cheers,
Ray Adams

Visual FX Supervisor
R Creative Touch

hisko
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by hisko » 03 Sep 2008, 19:38

radams6 wrote: Once I get my upgrade...I will make a sample UI to what I'm stating...
For those used to this powerful yet simple control...from other apps such as Photoshop, and many other production paint systems even the old paintbox and Ava paint systems (for those of us with some grey hairs :)
In the mean time, you could make an example in photoshop, also to show what you do with it (if you have time for that).
I'm curious in the sort of visual fx work that you want to do with tvpaint.

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radams6
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by radams6 » 04 Sep 2008, 03:10

Hi all,

I will be uploading some images to help show what I'm talking about...

I'll first show it in a basic way...then will show it in a slightly more complex way.

There will be several postings since I can only add three images at a time.
Alpha (masks) 01.jpg
Alpha (masks) 02.jpg
Alpha (masks) 03.jpg
Ray Adams

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radams6
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by radams6 » 04 Sep 2008, 03:23

Alpha (masks) 04.jpg
Alpha (masks) 05 - woops.jpg
Alpha (masks) 06 - woops.jpg
Now the files ending in woops...just show that you can make mistakes or make modifications in realtime non destructively even weeks or months later..with little effort.
This abilitity to ping pong the alpha on/off blend , etc...if quick easy an is the back bone of touch up work...and the ability to isolate elements from various plates...or from the same plate.

It also makes short work of previs or quick comps on location...to give representations without being exact..but simple and quick...

There are so many uses for this process...including those for tecturing for gaming, etc..with animated alphas...it is also a key tool for motion graphics with various elements.
taking less time to clean up and manipulate them. And as I stated before...it gives you the ability to always tweek and make adjustments later...

The image here is from a broadcast/web motion graphic package I'm creating for a national syndicated show. I'm only using this to show as say a shot plate...that you want to isolate elements, touchup, cut away...etc...

Working with alphas allows for easier registration and more control over the image & the effects.

I could go on for a whole chapter or more just on this process and uses.

See more images in the next post...

Please remenber that I see all the layers...in realtime and can flip back and forth from adding or subtracting the alpha (mask) to allow me to be quick and precis when needed.

Cheers,
Last edited by radams6 on 04 Sep 2008, 14:32, edited 1 time in total.
Ray Adams

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radams6
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by radams6 » 04 Sep 2008, 03:26

Alpha (masks) 07a.jpg
Alpha (masks) 07.jpg
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radams6
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by radams6 » 04 Sep 2008, 03:32

Alpha (masks) 08.jpg
Alpha (masks) 09 off.jpg
Now these last two images are from my quick mockup which is just the beginning of a style concept...
This is only in the very beginning stages of concept for the graphic package.

There are several layers..that are defined by its alpha channel...with several layers per element...give options on intensity, color, texture, etc...

This is so helpful when just playing with concepts...cause it allows you to tweek till its just right...

There are about 30 or so layers (so far)...and 80% use some form of alpha mask...

The second image shows an element with several layers...with the alpha mask off..

Think about this...with that alpha stationary...I could move the element over time...showing motion with the texture or color shifts...
Or I could animated the alpha and see the texture/ color come an go...or do both :)

This is not the best example...but just wanted to whip this up quick...showing the idea of it.

Cheers,

Cheers,
Ray Adams

Visual FX Supervisor
R Creative Touch

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Mandalaholic
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by Mandalaholic » 05 Sep 2008, 17:16

I totally agree with Ray, this would be a wonderful feature. A feature like this would have me up grading in a heartbeat. I use mirage mostly for fx and motion graphics. This would really up the ante, and create less need for expensive adobe motion graphics software.
Howdy Yaaaal!

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radams6
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by radams6 » 06 Sep 2008, 14:46

Hi Mandalaholic,

Yeah, this is one a few key things missing from TVP that keeps this from being a basic tool for compositors and finish editors.

!) interactive non destructive alpha with onscreen layer views
2) color depth, needing float support along with OpenEXR, and Red camera (helpful)
3) 3D LUT support with XML
4) Import/export paths, splines etc...
5) Custom Shaped brushes that can be used in ANY mode
6) Grouping functions
7) Import Photoshop and After Effects files
8) Additional Plugin support
This is a start.

Sone additional helpful features..
9) a more extensive SDK/George or Python scripting (for studios) along with linux
10) Vector drawing/path tools (this doesn't mean a vector paint...but drawing tools that can be saved, reused, edited and interactive
11) Follow shape fills and operations
12) Improved keyers
13) Add better tracking, and plane tracking
14) better integration with Final Cut Pro - Motion, Adobe Premier Pro - After Effects- Photoshop, NewTek Speed Edit - LIghtwave.

There are more features and tools to hit more specific artists and workflows...but this would be a nice extension.

Except for the 2D animation market...TVP has to work within another appilcation or applications workflow(s).

What is so cool about TVP...is that you are a product that can be a part of the entire production chain workflow.
From concept...to previs.....to onset....to preliminary edit....to final finish...

But the whole production world has been turned upside down with the changing toolsets...and professional tools aa commodity now. Thank Apple and Adobe...GRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

So there is a niche not only for 2D animators...but the whole production process...it will require some additional features...and directed marketing...to gain acceptance.

Cheers,
Ray Adams

Visual FX Supervisor
R Creative Touch

mjloskin
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Re: Non destructive alpha support

Post by mjloskin » 17 May 2011, 14:29

Hi everyone,
i totally agree with this request.
I found in general, the TVPaint workflow extremelly destructive compared with other bitmap softwares, like this example of the masks.

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