Grouping layers,

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radams6
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Grouping layers,

Post by radams6 » 06 Sep 2008, 14:23

Well, I think that says it..

To have a way to group layers.

Awhile ago you started to allow us to color code layers etc...I wish that could be extended into creating groups.

To be able to then more easily control operations with groups.

It would also be nice to be able to have a layer be part of more than one group.

What do all of you think...what would you like to see, how would you like it to work,
and how would you like to see it implemented.

Cheers,
Ray Adams

Visual FX Supervisor
R Creative Touch

hisko
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by hisko » 06 Sep 2008, 14:39

This is a very old and wise request, that has been posted many times. I'm sure the tvpaint-team takes this requests serious.

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radams6
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by radams6 » 06 Sep 2008, 16:47

Hi Hisko,

Thanks for your thoughts...
I'm just trying to start a conversation on how we the users would like to see this implemented.

I agree that TVP know about the need for this...but to help them understand what would help us with our needs is another matter.
It is not enough to say I want...

But to help define what it is...and how we would like to see it impelmented...along with our reasons why.

That helps the developer see not just a feature...but the whole workflow..and issues for us as the creatives using the application or workflow.

Cheers,
Ray Adams

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R Creative Touch

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Sierra Rose
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by Sierra Rose » 06 Sep 2008, 17:38

Yes, of course, grouping layers would save a lot of time and energy. I would love it. I color code mine in groups now, but that has its limits.
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hisko
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by hisko » 06 Sep 2008, 18:31

radams6 wrote:
That helps the developer see not just a feature...but the whole workflow..and issues for us as the creatives using the application or workflow.

Cheers,
You are right. Keep it up!

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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by hisko » 06 Sep 2008, 18:41

Sierra K Rose wrote:Yes, of course, grouping layers would save a lot of time and energy. I would love it. I color code mine in groups now, but that has its limits.
And when one wants to move layers with the keyframer, it has to be done one by one, or all together, which isn't always what is wanted.

My favourite changes for tvpaint would be a better motion keyframer, a better multiplanecamera and layergrouping.
One of my other greatest wishes was to have more natural media brushes, and that problem has been solved now with the new possibilities for the brushes.
Many other important changes have been done recently, too many to name: instances, blending modes, the workspaces etc. etc.
As a Betatester I know that the tvpaint-developers come up with a bunch of new features every month, but it seems that some things like layergrouping are just more complicated than others.

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Sewie
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by Sewie » 06 Sep 2008, 20:42

hisko wrote: One of my other greatest wishes was to have more natural media brushes, and that problem has been solved now with the new possibilities for the brushes.
Do you mean the new watercolour brushes (http://www.tvpaint.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2663). Or all the brushes in TVPaint-9 altogether ?
(I am hoping for better "dry media" brushes, like different sizes and shapes os chalk or pencils, for example, in a variety of hard- or softness.)

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Manuel
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by Manuel » 07 Sep 2008, 09:58

Well, to start the discussion about the grouping :
I imagine a panel at the left side of the current layer panel.
In this panel, you can create virtual folders, name and color them, choose their merge mode.
Of course, it means a full hierarchy, folders in folders.

The group merge mode affect the result of the layer group, related to the groups of same level (brothers)
The layer merge mode are limited to the group that the layers belongs to.

Layers are displayed as list or icons+name.
Once a folder is selected, all the related layers are listed in the timeline.
The hierarchy group panel can be hidden to gain space in the timeline.
Some hierarchy navigation buttons are avaiable even when the hierarchy panel is hidden.
In the workspace, we would have the choice to display current layer, current group, current group and group below/over, full project.

It is a good idea to have a layer to be in different groups.
So a layer could be "cloned" in the hierarchy list.
And if we have to modify a clone layer, we are able to duplicate it or change the source of the clone.

In the FX stack and other tools, the Source droplist will contain also the full list of groups.
Manuel

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Paul Fierlinger
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by Paul Fierlinger » 07 Sep 2008, 13:09

It sounds like you have given the subject a couple of minutes thought. Here's a question then: What happens to those nested layers if I want to split a project in the middle to divide it into two separate projects? If the answer is that it would be essential to expose all the nested layers back into visible, individual layers again, would it be possible to do this in a single click?

Coming to think of it, it would be nice if one could toggle up and down through a stack of these folders and have each one open back to individual layers and close up within a folder again as one toggles up to the next folder; perhaps by holding down Ctrl while pressing the up and down arrows.
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Peter Wassink
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by Peter Wassink » 07 Sep 2008, 13:26

Paul Fierlinger wrote:It sounds like you have given the subject a couple of minutes thought. Here's a question then: What happens to those nested layers if I want to split a project in the middle to divide it into two separate projects? If the answer is that it would be essential to expose all the nested layers back into visible, individual layers again, would it be possible to do this in a single click?
When layers are in a folder it doesn't mean you can no longer individually see them. Acces and visibility of layers should depend on how you set the folder status;
-folded: folding all its containing layers in itself and only the folder layer will be visible and accessible in the timeline.
-unfolded: exposing all its containing layers in a way that is identical to the current layer panel. all its layers are available for editing.
the fold status does not influence the way the project looks.
i imagine we need some sort of 'folder tree column' somewhere on the left side of the layer panel. (f.i. next to the Stencil column)

i also think all current layer setting options (visibility, opacity, blendmodes, locking, coloring...etc.) remain possible to layers but additionally these settings will be possible for the folders as well, duplicating their effect.
by duplicating their effect i mean that this folder itself could be given in its entirety its own visibility/opacity/blendmodes/locking/coloring-setting and behave just as if it was a single layer in the current TVP.
Last edited by Peter Wassink on 07 Sep 2008, 13:44, edited 2 times in total.
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Paul Fierlinger
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by Paul Fierlinger » 07 Sep 2008, 13:36

Is this something you guys are familiar with from another application? I have never seen anything like this myself, so I have a hard time imagining how it would work (although these explanations have helped me).
Paul
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Peter Wassink
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by Peter Wassink » 07 Sep 2008, 13:46

to answer your question, for splitting up a project nothing needs to change in the folder structure.
if you want to work with a particular individual layer in the new project simply unfold its folder.

Photoshop has a very logical folder structure in its layerpanel (and it was basically what i was describing)
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malcooning
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by malcooning » 07 Sep 2008, 13:48

Paul Fierlinger wrote:Is this something you guys are familiar with from another application? I have never seen anything like this myself, so I have a hard time imagining how it would work (although these explanations have helped me).
anything adobe works this way.

most obvious example is After Effects, which wears the title "King of Layers". (at least this is what I felt when I decided that this system of uber-layers is counter-productive for me). It can group layers; it can link several "child" layers to a single "parent" layer so when any transformation occurs in the parent, it occurs in the child, but not vice versa; and it can "nest", which means that you can place one project as a layer (reference layer) in another proejct - this saves you from having to have all the layer of the "nested" project in your timeline, and at the same time you can still edit the original "nested" project.

And photoshop is quite a good example for it too, although cumbersome, I find.

By the way, in Vegas you can get near that notion too, as you can set parent-child relationships for layers, and therefore you can lock some layers to others, and have blending modes affect only the grouped layers rather than the whole column of your layers.

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Paul Fierlinger
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by Paul Fierlinger » 07 Sep 2008, 13:49

So I imagine that this is the view of an opened group but it can be collapsed down to a single folder, correct?
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Re: Grouping layers,

Post by Peter Wassink » 07 Sep 2008, 14:18

Paul Fierlinger wrote:So I imagine that this is the view of an opened group but it can be collapsed down to a single folder, correct?
allmost... in this example layer 0 is not part of any group and will thus remain visible after folding all groups.
so then you get this:

-layer 0
-group1
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