Mirage owner status?

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Yojimbo
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by Yojimbo » 21 Sep 2008, 03:55

radams6 wrote: Thou, things are changing in the technology field...with major advancements. Software also can not stand still...and TVP needs to look at supporting 64 bit, Multi core processors, Vista, the 64 bit Mac, etc...this will just help to expand functionalities...and abilites. Even a new cheap laptop has more CPU power now for $600 than my dual Xeon had just two years ago ($7,500). Also the HUGE calculation power of GPUs, Allowing even more Realtime functionality.
This is the very thing that always worry me. Just when computers get powerful enough to make work lightning fast, they go and changed the software, adding tons of unnecessary overhead to slow everything down again, sometimes even more than before.

If not that, then everything suddenly has to be 2000 pixels and 16 bit color depth, making all these cheap new hard drives useless because one frame takes up as much as a minute of video did in the past.
------
Yojimbo
The last man standing with a fist full of dollars

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greeble
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by greeble » 17 Dec 2008, 07:13

Hi TV paint and mirage users,
This post is actually more directed at the management and marketing team.:evil:
I am not trying to just be a troll or abusive- this is a genuine grievance, I just can't help being a little sarcastic.

Thanks for the Christmas special offer :lol:

Tell you what, why don't you make it a real special, offer instead of a blown out , marked up joke?
The price to upgrade is exactly that- a JOKE.
Why would anyone stay loyal to a company that uses extortionate practises like these?

I'll just have to wear out my old copy of mirage until some better bitmap animation software comes out, 'cos I'm not paying that for an upgrade.
Sure, TVpaint is not a bad program but it ain't all that!
We already paid a bucket load once , I think you should offer this at half price at least.
I know you want to say,(with a snivel, I can only assume)"but Mirage wasn't ours and we didn't get any money"- yeah that may be true but you closed them down and took all their customers who have nothing to do with any problem TV paint had with Bauhaus.
Of course your customers would rather have paid the right people, but show some respect to us as artists and regular human beings, we are not corporations or moguls.

I would love to be contributing to the forum in some more positive manner- I just simply can't afford or justify this extravagance of the upgrade to TVpaint. :cry:
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Fabrice
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by Fabrice » 17 Dec 2008, 10:10

Sorry, but the pricing policy is logical :

Mirage (TVPaint 7 engine) is born in 2003, it was sold 895 €.

TVP Animation 8 is born in 2006, the upgrade from Mirage was between 380 € and 475 €, depending on the purchase date.

TVP Animation 9 is born in 2008, the upgrade from TVP Animation 8 Professional Edition costs actually 325 €.

- - - - -

So : The upgrade from Mirage (TVPaint 7 engine) to TVP animation 9 Professional Edition is 700 €. (380 € + 325 € = 705 € ...)
This offer was available from 1st september to 31th november. We have just extended it until the end of the year.

nb : You also have the possibility to upgrade to TVP Animation 9.0 Standard Edition for half of the price : 350 €
Fabrice Debarge

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malcooning
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by malcooning » 17 Dec 2008, 11:23

greeble wrote:Why would anyone stay loyal to a company that uses extortionate practises like these?
thousands of users seem to stay loyal to Adobe even though Photoshop CS4 is released 1 year only after CS3 was released, and its upgrade tag is €480, and its full purchase tag €1500 (in France).

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Peter Wassink
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by Peter Wassink » 17 Dec 2008, 12:08

malcooning wrote:
greeble wrote:Why would anyone stay loyal to a company that uses extortionate practises like these?
thousands of users seem to stay loyal to Adobe even though Photoshop CS4 is released 1 year only after CS3 was released, and its upgrade tag is €480, and its full purchase tag €1500 (in France).
indeed... CS3 is double the price here compared to what it costs in the US (talking about extorsionte practises)
what can you do? what should TVP do?
Peter Wassink - 2D animator
• PC: Win10/64 Home - Xeon Quadcore E5410@2.33Ghz - 12Gb RAM
• laptop: Win10/64 Pro - i7-4600@2.1 GHz - 8Gb RAM

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greeble
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by greeble » 17 Dec 2008, 12:13

thousands of users seem to stay loyal to Adobe even though Photoshop CS4 is released 1 year only after CS3 was released, and its upgrade tag is €480, and its full purchase tag €1500 (in France)
Ahhh so that makes it OK. I guess that's why Photoshop is THE most pirated software on the planet, so that's millions of disloyal users .

Mr. Spock said :wink:
Sorry, but the pricing policy is logical :

Ahhh so that makes it OK. :mrgreen:
I hate how software is pirated so much, and so would Adobe if they had half a brain in their marketing department. So what would be truly logical would be to reduce the price and make it more affordable to more people.
A lower price would be so much more effective at increasing sales than any amount of Adobe spam or seminars.
Twice as many purchases at half the price would make just as much money and also put just a tiny dent in the pirating racket. CS3 is priced so high that many many people are victim to another logic... I'm sure you can work out what that is.

I prefer to boycott, but I am glad there is a forum here for us to express our legitimate opinions(or represent the policies of the vendors).
Truly if my income (and so many others) could even come close to affording the massive amounts of software upgrades that they would like purchase,in order to keep my income 'coming in' then they and I would be glad to fork out.
Unfortunately there is no balance between income and expenses so therefore ..... no logic...and therefore tragically for many would be customers and vendors... no sale.

Make sense?
BTW The music industry worked this out some time ago, but not soon enough... unfortunately for many composers and musicians.
Sorry for being disagreeable, but you can't agree with everything, I'm not trying to knock TV paint, the programmers or the artists who use it, whom I respect and applaud.
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User 767

Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by User 767 » 17 Dec 2008, 15:59

The upgrade price from Photoshop 4 to CS4 is the same price as from CS3 to CS4 though.

With the TVP pricing strategy, if you don't purchase the upgrade this time around, then when TVP 10 comes out, will you have to pay more than the normal retail of that version to upgrade?

I find it curious that people have to pay for versions that they never had use of. I guess it's to pay for the development? To make if fair for the people who have upgraded consistently? But they had use of the new features, didn't they? Now matter how convoluted it gets, there's always logic to support a position, isn't there?

But why only for a limited time?

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Fabrice
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by Fabrice » 17 Dec 2008, 16:16

The upgrade price from Photoshop 4 to CS4 is the same price as from CS3 to CS4 though.
Sure ? As far as I know (at least in France) you can only upgrade from CS1, 2 or 3.
With the TVP pricing strategy, if you don't purchase the upgrade this time around, then when TVP 10 comes out, will you have to pay more than the normal retail of that version to upgrade?
Those are the last days to upgrade Mirage. After the 31th december, there will be no more upgrade from Mirage.
I guess it's to pay for the development?
Yes.
To make it fair for the people who have upgraded consistently?
Yes.
Now matter how convoluted it gets,
I don't see anything convoluted here.
We have a software to develop and our loyal users to support.
But why only for a limited time?
Because Mirage is almost 6 years old ! And the upgrade campaign from Mirage to TVP began almost 3 years ago.
We have to turn the Mirage page and go forward.
(french translation in order to avoid any misunderstanding : nous devons tourner la page de Mirage et aller de l'avant)
Fabrice Debarge

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Sierra Rose
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by Sierra Rose » 17 Dec 2008, 16:27

But you have to appreciate TVPaint making software you sooooo want to buy. Investing in the software keeps this team in business, which is very important when you look around at what you'd have if they weren't in business. I can't imagine the hours they must put in to keep improving their beautiful product.

It's not a donation like to the Obama campaign, but it is a way of voting with your money for a tool you really need and love.
WinXP 32bit 10.0.17Pro

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greeble
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by greeble » 17 Dec 2008, 17:48

We have to turn the Mirage page and go forward.
Nice catchphrase, if it sounds good, does it need to have any meaning?
Funny though, TVpaint was almost invisible on the net when I bought mirage, marketing wasn't trying very hard then otherwise us folk who bought mirage a couple of years ago would have seen TV paint and followed up. I suppose high price makes up for the shortage of customers. That's right it's not a high price...... :lol:
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radams6
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by radams6 » 17 Dec 2008, 22:57

Hi Greeble and all,

First I wish to thank TVPaint Dev. for allowing the extension thru till the end of the year.
I hope that those who can take advantage of it.

Second, Geeble,

Yes there's been ups and downs,
but please understand...that essentially think of the new TVPaint Pro being a new product from a new owner.
the rights for Mirage, etc... have been taken over by TVPaint Dev....

Now think, other companies take over other companies and product lines.
Some products are continued, other are dumped, etc..and others are rolled over into other products.

TVPaint Dev. has been nice to offer us Mirage users a "discounted" price to get onboard with the new TVPaint Pro.
Don't think of it as an upgrade...cause it isn't...new product, and new company (no matter what the history is)

IMHO Be thankful that there is a continuation of this product line...

Geeble, if you don't have a need or desire to purchase to TVPaint Pro...then fine...but please,it isn't necessary to bash TVPaint Dev.
Cause you don't like their pricing....say thanks for the discount offer..and no thanks at this time.

No need to get nasty....or pissed, etc....

If Mirage is all you want or need then fine...if you plan to change to another product line..then fine...(you most likely will also pay full price for any new software as well)

TVPaint Dev....has priced their products per there needs and marketing...

This whole production software markets have turned upside down with all the changes going on...its not easy out there.

Please lets all get back to creating...and making productive positive posts...

Cheers
Ray Adams

Visual FX Supervisor
R Creative Touch

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greeble
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by greeble » 18 Dec 2008, 01:50

Thanks for your reply radams6, some well presented points there, though I think my logic is OK.
Not to defend myself, more to set reset the tone, I'd like to say, just because I am not agreeing with the company line, it doesn't mean I am red faced and ranting. :roll: :)
radams6:
it isn't necessary to bash TVPaint Dev.
With sincere respect radams6, I didn't bash the dev team, read my posts again in fact I raised my cap to them.
greeble:
I'm not trying to knock TV paint, the programmers or the artists who use it, whom I respect and applaud.
There's no nastiness here, just a different point of view.
I don't have to be a marketing fanboy or a media moneybags to post on the forum, I am not being abusing or harassing.

I would like to say one thing and without vitriol. For such a senior person I would have expected a more perceptive opinion, I hope you don't mind pulling you up on your major point.
new product, and new company (no matter what the history is)
If that was the case why was there any case for Bauhaus to answer to, wasn't that the reason for all the wrangling and takeovers - it wasn't a new product?
Look I have said I like the software, basically. I did say it is a very pricey upgrade. I think that not offering the customers who bought " the same product" which has been taken over by another company,( no matter what the circumstances) the exact same treatment as ANY of their other customers, it would be only fair.
SO , I know there will be much defensive retorting here, but I hope this is my last entry on this matter, and once again thanks to all the great programmers who have tried to get a half decent bitmap animation program (albeit with some rather quirky methods) to the artists.

Greeble says..:One more thing,:
Marketers sometimes have to believe their blurb in order to make others believe it, sometimes they are just lying to get you to buy.
It is even better when the customers believe the blurb with such conviction that they will take up arms to defend the blurb.
That's not for offence, I'm sure you get what I'm saying :wink:
Have a great day everyone.
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radams6
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by radams6 » 18 Dec 2008, 04:42

Hi Again, Greeble.

I'm glad that your not red in the face....thou you seem to be little tense with your opinion ;)

As for my comments,
I haven't been a fanboy for anyone or anything for sometime :)

I speak my thoughts and opinions...not someone else's.

As for the past of Mirage... that is in the past...
and has little to nothing to do with what is going on with TVPaint Dev.

As I stated, TVPaint Dev. (who now owns Mirage ,etc...) is allowing us users a discount...to their TVPaint Pro.
Which they don't need to do.

I have not stated one way or the other...if the price for it is high or low...just that is what TVPaint Dev...is selling it for.
They could not allow anyone with Mirage to have a discount...(considering the past) but they have...so why say that they are out of line ?

What I'm saying isn't a cheering squad...just stating facts...and my thoughts.

So the price is too high for you...(and maybe others) but put that into context of their main pricing...not the disount they are giving.

If you feel that TVPaint Pro...is too high..fine...then please start a thread...with that as its core...letting TVPaint Dev. know your reasoning
And not just that you don't have the money....but realities of the market...(and you should understand the realities of their development as well).

(said with respect) But whining, that you expected something more due to you owning Mirage...isn't an arguement.
TVPaint Dev...could have just killed it...and required a full license to TVPaint Pro...which many did even before TVPaint Dev. offered the discount.

Yes, I've been around awhile...but you might want to stop reacting...and let some of the above realities sink in.

Here's something for you to think about...outside of TVPaint Pro...what other Paint over time apps do you know of...or use ?

What's the price of a flame license...and system to run it ?
or inferno ?

What is the cost of a quantel system ?

What is the price of Fusion ?

etc....

Photoshop still doesn't support this kind of work environment...thou it is a very powerful application.

And then add the animators tools... :)

Yes there are other apps out there...and there might even be an open source solution someday...but from what I've seen it isn't here yet.

Cheers,
Ray Adams

Visual FX Supervisor
R Creative Touch

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greeble
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by greeble » 18 Dec 2008, 05:23

We've both had our say... hooray.
- Fanboy :P
(edited with cheeky addition.)
Last edited by greeble on 18 Dec 2008, 06:05, edited 1 time in total.
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radams6
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Re: Mirage owner status?

Post by radams6 » 18 Dec 2008, 05:54

;) hoo (me)

;)
Ray Adams

Visual FX Supervisor
R Creative Touch

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