Retas Pro question

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donbartolo
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Retas Pro question

Post by donbartolo »

Hello to all.

This is for the people using Stylos HD 2 from Retas:

Is there a way to improve the anti-aliasing quality from the vector layer? The line-quality is not as smooth as the raster layer. Someone any clue? ^^
Sorry if my question sounds stupid, but i'm not mastering the soft yet. :p

Here a little zoom-in from a screenshot in Stylos:
line quality difference
line quality difference
retas.jpg (35.01 KiB) Viewed 43284 times
Great thx forwardly!
Last edited by donbartolo on 30 Sep 2010, 15:10, edited 1 time in total.
ten_zero
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by ten_zero »

donbartolo wrote:Hello to all.
Is there a way to improve the anti-aliasing quality from the vector layer?
The line-quality is not as smooth as the raster layer. Someone any clue? ^^
Please ask RETAS!PRO Support in English.
http://www.celsys.co.jp/en/support/reta ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Spoiler : *Oops* :
In Stylos, vector layer have only path data, not have like Adobe Flash & ToonBoom Vector layer.
Before 20 years, Japanese Animation studio's PC for their work were too low spec.
Celsys thought ... "clean vector line need not for during draw, paint and effect works. Isn't it ?"
That is why Stylos verctor layer has not clean vector line.
01.png
It make only final export from coreRETAS or Stylos [file]→[export]→ [eps...] or [swf...]
02.png
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donbartolo
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by donbartolo »

Hello Ten_Zerooooooo! :)))

Many thanks for the fast answer!

The english support or active forum is a myth! Nobody will answer! You don't even really know where to go to find an answer! It's nt like here on the forum of TV-Paint with extremely active-feedback! I don't even think there exists a real Retas forum in english! :)))

My problem is not the smoothness of the black line. But the anti-aliasing around the line. (anti-aliasing= those 'grey' pixels that fade out till complete transparency around tthe line).
If you take a look to the raster layer on Stylos (see image i posted), there are more anti-aliasing "grey" levels which give a more smooth transition when zoomed out at 100%

Sorry i can't explain it in japanese, this must be confusing talk.


***An exemple to illustrate this: in Toon-Boom Animate (which is vectorial), you can choose the degree of realtime anti-aliasing (How higher, how more work to calculate it )***
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ten_zero
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by ten_zero »

RETAS STUDIO technical support forum
http://faq2.celsys.co.jp/modules/newbb/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(only Japanese language and RETAS! Japanese Edition :( )
Spoiler : Ehen, ehen :
Would you like to select of the Anti-alies quality ?
(from 256 gray scale tone to minimum scale tone)
StylosScreenSnapz001.png
Too bad, Stylos "View" option has only "enable Anti-alias for vector layer",
ON or OFF.
StylosScreenSnapz003.jpg
P.S.
"Stylis" latest version is 2.5.6.
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donbartolo
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by donbartolo »

Hello back Ten-Zero!

Great thx for your answers! :)

It's a shame that there is no real customer support/forum for english speaking people... I suppose that its expensive price for the english release don't make Retas!Pro HD popular outside Asia... :'(

I really wish that one day all those beautiful vector functionalities from Retas will be added to TV-Paint. But i think this will not happen... At least as if what's written on Facebook comes really from the TV-Paint Team:
"TVP Animation est une technologie bitmap en oppostion au dessin vectoriel." Which can translated by "TVP Animation is a bitmap technology in opposition to vectorial drawing" ... Aaargh ^^;
ten_zero
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by ten_zero »

donbartolo wrote: It's a shame that there is no real customer support/forum for english speaking people... I suppose that its expensive price for the english release don't make Retas!Pro HD popular outside Asia... :'(
Maybe CELSYS think "why we must be supprt in English ?"
Because RETAS STUDIO in store for Japan & Eastern Asia studio, RETAS! Pro HD English version support should be part of job by dealership.
donbartolo wrote: I really wish that one day all those beautiful vector functionalities from Retas will be added to TV-Paint.
But i think this will not happen...
RETAS means "Revolutionary Engineering Total Animation System" for Japanese Animation Studio System.
TVPaint for Total Animation System for (mainly) European and North American Animation Studio System.
Each software are always troubled with their culture gap.
for example, ToomBoom fell through to propagate it for Japanese Studio and Toonz should be made over exclusive vesion for Studio Ghibli.

For TVPaint, it will be hard way to diffuse in Japan but it is only professional (and hard headed) customers.
Many Japanese amateur Animators and students of art school ... one and all, they really want to A simply, easy and inexpensive total animation system.
donbartolo wrote: At least as if what's written on Facebook comes really from the TV-Paint Team:
"TVP Animation est une technologie bitmap en oppostion au dessin vectoriel." Which can translated by "TVP Animation is a bitmap technology in opposition to vectorial drawing" ... Aaargh ^^;
That is why I interested for TVPaint Animation :wink: .
Vector line is very clean ... too clean ... tense line make me only fatigue(keep my doodle style, please !! :x ).
Dragonball this century REMAKE series resembles in clean and shape but not in hand drawing tension like 20th century's TV series, isn't it ?
Spoiler : Keep close if you takes no interest in Japanese Animation / DBZ OP :
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donbartolo
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by donbartolo »

Maybe CELSYS think "why we must be supprt in English ?"
Because RETAS STUDIO in store for Japan & Eastern Asia studio, RETAS! Pro HD English version support should be part of job by dealership.
Hummm...
When Smithmicro made the english release from Comic Studio, i expected Smithmicro to make some support for Manga Studio. (very limited community :lol: )
When Celsys decided to adapt by themeselves the english release from Retas HD, i expect Celsys to make the support for Retas. (Especially when you see the amazing support, tutorials, explanations and plugins in the japanse section from the same site).
Who else would invest in support? :(
Each software are always troubled with their culture gap.
I know you are right. But...

What if you like TvPaint because of it's fantastic bitmap functionalities but you want also to have the fantastic vector functionalities from Retas?
What if you want Retas, but with the fantastic bitmap functionalities from TvPaint?
What if you want the fantastic vector output from Toon Boom but with a pencil/brush tools that would be as simplified and effective as Retas or the bitmap functionalities from TVPaint?

Aaargh... -__-;
I am not a marketing guy, but if i was, i would know for sure where to spend my money in upcoming development ...
Vector line is very clean ... too clean ... tense line make me only fatigue(keep my doodle style, please !!
Come on... Your Dragon Ball Vector exemple was too easy! Let's take this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKT3RFCg ... r_embedded" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't tell me vector kills doodling. It depends on the guy doodling with the vector!

I don't won't to have vector for looking vector. Otherwise, Toon Boom would be the solution. I don't want to have vector replacing bitmap neither. I want to have vector and bitmap in the same software! I want to have the opportunity to choose between the two of them, because vector will offer complementary functionalities that bitmap just can't offer in a flexible way:
=> erasing intersections
=> bend lines that are already made
=> close line-gaps
=> ...

It's like Oil and airbrush. These are 2 different tools that can be used in a complementary way within the same software. Each with its own qualities and limitations...

I thought that Retas would be the solution. But the english release lacks in support and bitmap functionalities ( To me Tvpaint is the best in these categories!). Above that, i prefere the vector lines in Comic/Manga Studio than in Stylos.
Toon Boom is definitely too 'Flash' oriented.
So i do think that the only company that can fill this 'gap' is TV Paint. I really hope they will change their mind about vector one day, and integrate it to its software.
ten_zero
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by ten_zero »

donbartolo wrote: When Celsys decided to adapt by themeselves the english release from Retas HD, i expect Celsys to make the support for Retas. (Especially when you see the amazing support, tutorials, explanations and plugins in the japanse section from the same site).
Who else would invest in support? :(
Celsys is considering "RETAS will be not widely received for the Occident".

In Case of Manga(Comic)Studio, the work process is able to change so many men, so many minds.
However RETAS for Japanese Anime work process that call "Galapagos (Japanese-English, it means peculiar or strange) work process".
When the distributor support in English or other European language, it only burden on them.

Actually, ToonBoom Japanese language Edition's distributor caused a heavy loss per a year.
Macromedia Japan provided Flash 4 professional in 60% off price than U.S. regular price and their business become success.
What if you want Retas, but with the fantastic bitmap functionalities from TvPaint?
I use ComicStudio 4 for Mac, Fractal Design Painter Creature House Expression 3 (Great Manga effect tool by Vector) and Win書道(shodo, Japanese Sumi-e soft for Windows XP)yet, and adapt case by case (High resolution for Greeting card/print out, low resolution for doodle/Web/idea and etc.)
I am not a marketing guy, but if i was, i would know for sure where to spend my money in upcoming development ...
You can already use RETAS and TVPaint both with ! (by export consecutive PNG, tiff, eps ... ).
Come on... Your Dragon Ball Vector exemple was too easy! Let's take this one...
Don't tell me vector kills doodling.
It depends on the guy doodling with the vector!
Spoiler : Keep close if you take no interest in Japanese Animation 01 :

I regret that the answer say, "Non".
Gurren Lagann the movie human action part only drawn by paper and pencil.
They scanned it high resolution(over 2,144×1,160 pixel for next generation Blu-ray)but keep bitmap.

作画の鬼(Draw motion picture by pencil madness)
http://www.gainax.co.jp/anime/gurren-lagann/oni_r.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (TV series)
http://www.gainax.co.jp/anime/gurren-la ... i_4th.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (motion picture edition)
http://www.gainax.co.jp/anime/gurren-lagann/hy_oni.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.gainax.co.jp/anime/gurren-lagann/tora_l.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (composite)
http://www.gainax.co.jp/anime/top2/making.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (TOP 2)
Spoiler : Keep close if you take no interest in Japanese Animation 02 :



As you know Getter Robo inspired Gurren Lagann :)
keep stay for next response post ...


p.s.
Stylos is NOT handle software on Japanese Anime studio work for drawing.
someone of veteran animator said, "Stylos become extinct on CELSYS product lineup".
Their most useful software is TRACEMAN (for scan paper and pencil drawing) and PAINTMAN.
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donbartolo
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by donbartolo »

Actually, ToonBoom Japanese language Edition's distributor caused a heavy loss per a year.
Macromedia Japan provided Flash 4 professional in 60% off price than U.S. regular price and their business become success.
That's no surprise to me.
I own a license from Toon Boom animate Pro, and this software has great features but also great defaults:
Good:
- vectorisation process from a scanned paper is really really reaaally amazing!
- it has nice basic 3d features
- the vectorline and it's antialiasing are amazing good quality (as well for realtime emulation as for output)
- bitmap emulation is not bad (but surely doesn't match tvpaint's true bitmap )
- ...

BUT negative:...
- The pencil/brush tools are not flexible like Stylos/ Manga Studio
=>you can not 'join' 2 vector- lines easily
=>'thinckening' or bending a line is very difficult because of the ancher-points
=> changing a pencil-line into a brush line can change the line thickness (Horrible!)
=> no fading in /out available for pencil-tool

because of these negative points, i can understand that japanese people are not attracted by Toon Boom, because it's pretty unusable for making anime. (except if you start from paper ).

You can already use RETAS and TVPaint both with ! (by export consecutive PNG, tiff, eps ... ).
It's now almost a year that i work on a combination TVpaint (blue pencil) => exportation layers into psd to Manga Studio for inking=> exporting back to TVpaint for coloring.

I am pretty happy with the result but it's a slow process, because i can only check the black inked animation after importing back from Manga Studio into TvPaint. :(
That's the reason why i dream to have vector pencil tools from Manga Studio into TVPaint.

***especially for these features***:
-joining 2 lines
(end-point from line1 with start point from line 2 and vice/versa)
-bending maded lines (1 fixed point, 2 fix points, free start and points, move entire line)
- erasing intersections
-thickening part of lines
linked to penn-pressure
or like in Toon Boom by dragging brush-contours (but in a more flexible way, because it's not user-friendly if you have a lot of ancher points)

There is already a 3 point-spline vector tool integrated in tvpaint. (very handy! i use it a lot. Especially nice when linked to line fade in/out)
Maybe this tool can be developed for getting those features?

I regret that the answer say, "Non".
Gurren Lagann the movie human action part only drawn by paper and pencil.
They scanned it high resolution(over 2,144×1,160 pixel for next generation Blu-ray)but keep bitmap.
Aaaaaaaaargh!! :'(((((

By the way, i really like also Denno Coil (really nice story!), Diebuster(Great Gainax!) and Getter Robo (especially these ova's from your link with the Black getter! huhu! :) )
This "bitmap" scene from the human action part in Gurren Lagann made me also think of Ashita no Joe II
Spoiler : :
(When Camina dies it also remembered me about the end of Joe)


Great thanks for all this very interesting info, Ten Zero! :)
Last edited by donbartolo on 04 Oct 2010, 11:13, edited 1 time in total.
ten_zero
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by ten_zero »

donbartolo wrote: I am pretty happy with the result but it's a slow process, because i can only check the black inked animation after importing back from Manga Studio into TvPaint. :(
That's the reason why i dream to have vector pencil tools from Manga Studio into TVPaint.

***especially for these features***:
-joining 2 lines
(end-point from line1 with start point from line 2 and vice/versa)
-bending maded lines (1 fixed point, 2 fix points, free start and points, move entire line)
- erasing intersections
-thickening part of lines
linked to penn-pressure
or like in Toon Boom by dragging brush-contours (but in a more flexible way, because it's not user-friendly if you have a lot of ancher points)

There is already a 3 point-spline vector tool integrated in tvpaint. (very handy! i use it a lot. Especially nice when linked to fade in/out)
Maybe this tool can be developed for getting those features?
You should be post those idea to "Feature requests".
Not "Do the same", "Do more better for TVPaint" Σ d (゚∀゚)
This "bitmap" scene from the human action part in Gurren Lagann made me also think of Ashita no Joe II
That is a part of "Gekiga (not Manga)". CHIBA Tetshya, SAITO Takawo and etc...
DEZAKI and SUGINO knows use the way "Gekiga" and "theatrical" effect to limited Anime.
YABUKI Jo.jpg
Great thanks for all this very interesting info, Ten Zero! :)
Domo Arigato, too :D .
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donbartolo
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by donbartolo »

Aaah Joe! Such a great anime!! The French DVD release is beautiful. They added 3 mini-art books with a lot of beautiful artwork!

Wow! An artbook from Akio Sugino! I didn't even know it existed! :shock:
i suppose it's very hard to find? (seeing the drawings from the cover, it must be published in the early eighties)

For my part, it's the greatest duo from the Anime-world. The movie from "Space Adventure Cobra" is one of my favorite anime ever. It just hurts that they changed the soundtrack with music from Yello for the english/french release... (The japanese ending "Stay" fits so good to the end of the movie... ! )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYB1o7s0rtw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What's amazing with Akio/Sugino is that they almost always make you cry at the end of a story. I am a huge fan! :)

I am finishing watching Hakugei (The legend of Moby Dick) right now. It's really strange to see an animation from Dezaki/Sugino where the character design is only 50% from Sugino.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHdtACsO ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope they will bring out some new animation soon. The last i think they made together was Ultraviolet. The drawings are beautiful (really close to Black jack -style) but the animations were really static. (You can feel that the budget was really thight on this work but it's less catastrophic than "The Snow Queen")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEBhheYJ ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIA38kJPEqY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


ps: i posted my requests ^^
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4368" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ten_zero
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by ten_zero »

donbartolo wrote: I hope they will bring out some new animation soon. The last i think they made together was Ultraviolet.
The men latest works is "Genji", from Le Dit du Genji in 2009.
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donbartolo
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Re: Retas Pro question

Post by donbartolo »

I saw this anime too. It was very poetic with beautiful images. So 2009 is not so much far away. :) Maybe they will come soon with something new. ^^

I heard that some episodes from Genji were animated by the Studio that worked on the last adaptation of Space adventure Cobra. ( I really don't like the new episodes of Cobra, even if they are closer to the original work from Terasawa)
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