Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive ??!

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Fabrice
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Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive ??!

Post by Fabrice » 09 Oct 2014, 15:26

https://twitter.com/joyybox/status/519980581677838336" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :shock: :shock: :shock:



the lastest Adobe conference : at 5 min 59 s

I'm deeply shocked !!! :evil:
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D.T. Nethery
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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by D.T. Nethery » 09 Oct 2014, 16:18

There are two things:

1.) I have news for him: ALL forms of animation are tedious to do (i.e. time-consuming , difficult, require high skill-level which can take years to learn) , but what else is new ? Did this schmo just realize this ? His glaring naiveté on that subject negates any authority his remarks might otherwise have . (as well as one of my pet peeves , of using the term "animations" , which is a bastardized term in English. In proper English usage what an animator creates is animation. The animation may be made up of multiple scenes or shots , but the whole thing is called animation , not animations . An animator doesn't animate "animations" any more than a musician composes "musics". (interestingly enough, I don't notice widespread use of the term "animes" , as in : "Hey, guys, wanna look at my animes I posted on my Deviant Art gallery ?" Surprising ... but I digress ... )

2.) "Not expressive" is I suppose in the eye of the beholder , that's his opinion , but there is 100+ years of hand-drawn animation which disproves his ill-informed opinion.

Does anyone do animation who doesn't find it to be expressive , both in the making of it and the watching it ?

If people want to do the type of "animations" that he demonstrates in the video , then I'm sure they'll be happy with Adobe's new toy , for the hobbyist and wannabe , but what professional animator who can actually draw wants to make that kind of crap ?

-----

Watching the video segment again , it's not just drawn animation that he dismisses as "tedious and not expressive" , he says "character animation" so the disrespect is broader than drawn animation.


.
Last edited by D.T. Nethery on 09 Oct 2014, 16:59, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by Paul Fierlinger » 09 Oct 2014, 16:23

But look who's talking. Their expressions are so false, pretentious and unauthentic that I have to ask: How can these three animals understand human expressiveness?
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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by lemec » 09 Oct 2014, 17:05

I'm gonna be real calm and collected about this.

In context, Josh (the filmmaker giving the demo) probably cannot draw, or doesn't have vast experience as a traditional animator. For the purposes of the presentation, this is ideal.

Think about it. Not many people CAN draw. It's a difficult skill to obtain and it's very likely that only a small proportion of the crowd attending that presentation can draw as well. Josh is like them.

I am empathetic (understanding) of their situation. I have always made tools to make the task of painting and animation easier, and certainly, some of my tools are shortcuts (like protractor).

Right now, Josh and the two CEOs cannot express themselves through the medium of hand drawn, 2D animation (or even 2D still illustration). And, given the impressive display of technology in the presentation, I can understand how they might be enthusiastic about being able to animate cutout characters with motion capture or create quick layouts with responsive and context-sensitive touch interfaces. Yes, the motion capture is a little jerky, but the technology exists to create much better motion capture mapped to full on 3D-models, and it's a matter of time before it finds itself on a portable device.

For the average user and person who doesn't know any better, it's probably enough and will sell like hotcakes.

But here's the rub:

These tools are limited to already existing content. They all require that you take pictures and bring them into the system because you can't use these tools to actually DRAW and make new characters.

The tools are inaccurate. While you can reach in with your hands and fingers to manipulate things, you cannot make pixel-perfect adjustments. There are no rulers, no guides, and when you really want to drill down and fuss with precision placement, you're gonna be kind of boned. Anyone who's worked in advertising is familiar with having to CTRL+<arrow key> nudge things around and trying to do this sort of thing without a keyboard/mouse is like driving a car with a wiimote. You'll be able to get to your destination, but you'll be scraping other cars and taking out pedestrians, light posts, fire hydrants and baby carriages along the way. Trying to do graphic design with a touch interface is like operating Surgeon Simulator:


It might be a little while before you'll be able to use their system to paint eyelashes.

Motion capture is also limited to what you can act out in front of the sensors. Through technologies like the Kinect, they may even bring full body motion capture to their system. But motion capture was never meant for scenes like this:

Image

The tools and technology that they propose don't really look like you can operate them to create things outside of what they've designed or use it in ways they didn't expect. It's actually really rigid and limited. I imagine that some day down the road, Adobe will have a content marketplace where you download stock images and 3D models and stuff made by actual artists for you to stick together to make your ads and productions, and their tools will be the glue to hold it all together.

But someone's still going to have to provide the content, but that's not who they're marketing to.
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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by Elodie » 09 Oct 2014, 17:29

In context, Josh (the filmmaker giving the demo) probably cannot draw, or doesn't have vast experience as a traditional animator. For the purposes of the presentation, this is ideal.

Think about it. Not many people CAN draw. It's a difficult skill to obtain and it's very likely that only a small proportion of the crowd attending that presentation can draw as well. Josh is like them.
I can't draw, neither dance nor play music.
Anyway, I'm not a terrible arrogant and ignorant person who think "because I don't know this, l say it's lame".

It reminds me a debate about Andy Serkis who said "3D animators just do digital make-up, nothing more", without taking consideration about how complex their work is, just because he figured out that acting in a super tight suit with spheres on it, is quite more difficult...

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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by lemec » 09 Oct 2014, 18:10

I think I'm willing to let his statement slide because when it comes from him, it reflects more upon his shortcomings as an animator than the shortcomings of the medium.

There's no point in consulting a broken clock for the time of day, and getting upset at a broken clock for giving incorrect time readings is like getting mad at a puppy for urinating on the rug.

I was about to feel sorry for Josh for living an artistic career of limited artistic expression, but he probably makes a lot more money than I do.

Also I found the article regarding Andy Serkis' remark about 3D animation being akin to digital make-up:

Andy Serkis Calls Motion Capture 'Digital Makeup', Riles Up Animators
Image

(via: CINEMABLEND)

I can see where he's getting at. Before all this 3D technology, aliens and creatures had to be done with prosthetic make-up effects. Being a make-up artist takes a lot of skill, and in the terminology of cinematography, make-up artists did a lot to make many movies happen. Taken out of that context, it's easy to see how his statement becomes dismissive of animators' efforts.

The term "Digital make-up" was actually coined at WETA digital and essentially refers to prosthetic make-up effects... done digitally. What was once created with foam rubber, latex, servomotors and a team of animatronics operators is now performed with skeletal-rigged multimillion-polygon ZBrush wireframes, character animators, shader programmers, render farms etc, etc. Click-baiting journalists on a slow news day looking for controversy blew up a perfectly innocuous and valid statement into some sweet sweet outrage and plenty of ad revenue.
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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by Svengali » 09 Oct 2014, 21:38

More bad CEO Kabuki.
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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by David_Fine » 09 Oct 2014, 22:14

Well, to be fair, it is tedious, but it's worth it and TVPaint makes it that much less tedious. Doing what they are doing there? Well, the results speak for themselves. No thanks. More of a gimmick to show off what they can do rather than a tool that would be useful. I can see kids having fun moving a character around with their finger or it responding to their face though. So a good toy for kids!

The stuff at the end with smearing paint and pastel around looked pretty cool.
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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by schwarzgrau » 09 Oct 2014, 22:23

hehe the Surgeon Simulator comparison nails it! Thank you Mark!
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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by Lukas » 10 Oct 2014, 08:27

I think the technology is cool and am excited to see these kind of things used in theater and other live performances like at concerts or in amusement parks interacting with kids!

It's not going to replace 2D animation, as people will always love doing it and it IS expressive. It is tedious too, but nobody cares, certainly not the audience.
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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by Elodie » 10 Oct 2014, 09:55

@ Mark : I know journalists were (are ?) just looking for controversy like any gossip newspaper.
Anyway, IMHO, I find this sentence :
Andy Serki wrote: It's a given that they absolutely copy [the performance] to the letter, to the point in effect what they are doing is painting digital makeup onto actors' performances. It's that understanding which has changed as much as anything. ."
... a little arrogant. His job (and mo-cap actors' job) is absolutely incredible. But 3D animators behind are not just applying a digital make-up : they also have to reinterpret the data, the shapes, the expression.
This is even more disappointing from someone who was afraid to stay in the shadow, since in an earlier stage, he was just supposed to be a voice actor for Gollum and a visual help for 3D animators.

But well, it's another debate :mrgreen:
Lukas wrote:It's not going to replace 2D animation, as people will always love doing it and it IS expressive.
Replacing or not 2D animation is not really the problem or any reason for concern.
The behaviour of those 3 guys (and especially this film maker) is just completely condescending. "OMG, animation is not expressive or fun ! Look at this great app on this tablet, I can move and speak and the creature on the screen will do the same ! That's animation !"

Nope, it's not.

I mean... the 2 other guys represent 2 of the biggest companies in the world whose the commercial target is also the professional market for cinema and animation. By trying to please the large audience, they are disrespectful towards their customers.

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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by Paul Fierlinger » 10 Oct 2014, 12:17

I don't see drawing for long hours that stretch into years as tedium. To each his own, but there is much to be said about the contemplative life that produces satisfaction and peace of mind. Give me a choice between the lively excitement of commercial production days with its crammed hours of overnight neurosis to meet deadlines, and my current condition of spending years of tighter inbetweening that I never before had time to properly carry out and I will choose the latter.

Tedium means tiresome because of length and boredom which I rarely experience. I'd rather lose sleep because sleep becomes an interruption in the creative process than lose sleep over the fear of failure to meet deadlines and the demands of disjointed CEOs of the ilk we see in this video.
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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by ten_zero » 10 Oct 2014, 14:55

Adobe MAX 2014 animation projects minimum required :
 Hardware, Software, English language skill for their program's term, Electric Power and binding force as Microsoft/Adobe TAX or railway, most of all.

2D (Traditional way) animation minimum required :
 Paper, Pencil, India Rubber, native language, Tap (a Peg or flipbook) and ∞ human idea & possibility : priceless.


Their vision become a bad dream like "Les Temps modernes" if the planning against Autodesk Empire.
Anyway they are not face of customers as creator.
------------------

By the way,
Svengali wrote:More bad CEO Kabuki.
Which did you use in meaning, "歌舞伎(Kabuki)" or "傾奇(kabuki)" ?

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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by Svengali » 10 Oct 2014, 17:20

ten_zero wrote:By the way,
Svengali wrote:More bad CEO Kabuki.
Which did you use in meaning, "歌舞伎(Kabuki)" or "傾奇(kabuki)" ?
Noun: Kabuki ku'boo-kee
A form of Japanese theatre in which elaborately costumed male performers use stylized movements, dances, and songs in order to enact tragedies and comedies

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Re: Adobe: 2D animation tedious and certainly not expressive

Post by ten_zero » 10 Oct 2014, 17:40

Svengali wrote: Noun: Kabuki ku'boo-kee
A form of Japanese theatre in which elaborately costumed male performers use stylized movements, dances, and songs in order to enact tragedies and comedies

Sven
Thank you for your response,
I guessed an interpretation homophone in native language - "傾奇(kabuki)" - They talked a "selfishness" thinking, indeed.


T_Z

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